Gender Equality Also Brings Happiness to Men

 

An interview with Thai Thi Ngoc Du, Ph.D

Over 40 years ago, Thai Thi Ngoc Du earned her doctoral degree in France. Since then Dr. Du has taught at several universities in Hue and Saigon (Ho Chi Minh). She is one of very few women in Vietnam who have developed studies on women; consequently, she has devoted her entire life to a teaching career and has subsequently inspired generations. Following her retirement, Dr. Du is now continuing to conduct a variety of gender research topics at the Gender and Society Research Center (GAS) at Hoa Sen University in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam.

Following are the interviewer’s questions and her responses during the interview:

Interviewer : In 1973, Dr.Du were back in Hue after returning from France . You had started teaching at Hue University and are still teaching and working at various universities today. You have contributed your life to education with devotion. Looking back now, what stage in your career do you find the most memorable?

Dr. Du: There are actually two stages. The first was after 1975 while Vietnam was in transition to a new educational system. At that time I eagerly welcomed new ideas, especially visions from one of the well-known educational leaders at that time – Professor Ta Quang Buu. He stressed a new method of social education which prioritized and targeted the poor and underprivileged populations of children. This concern did not mean that educators ignored their weaknesses or gave these children additional grades in the classes, instead that the schools must have provided support and opportunities to raise the grade levels of these children. Such assistance resulted in the educators becoming better individuals and responsible citizens. I thought these were advanced perspectives.

Interviewer: How about the second stage? At what period was that, Madame?

Dr. Du:  It was in the 1990s, in the context of our country opening its doors to the outside world of education. Vietnam welcomed international exchanges in science and began academic development among many new pilots programs. I was the dean of the Geography Department at The University of Social Sciences and Humanities. I was always looking forward for ways to improve the professional qualification of peers and colleagues and promote the application of innovative teaching methods in the classes. I, along with my colleagues, encouraged our students to think more critically and dynamically.

Once our Geography Department had acquired both the correct academic conditions and economic development, we began to use Informatics as an essential tool. Our department and faculty were free to improve curricula. I brought a new subject into the program called “The Introduction of Administration” taught by Dr. Tran Anh Tuan, a faculty member of the Economics and Administration department. I also found that students were interested in writing, so consequently I added an Applied Vietnamese Course to the program, which remains in the general program today. In short, that time was a milestone in the expansion of academics. It was just the right time and favorable conditions coming together for me to create useful work in accordance with my wishes.

Interviewer:  There were difficult times and a recession after the liberation of 1975 which resulted in many intellectuals leaving the country. Did that make you feel inadequate or lost during that time?

Dr. Du:  It was true that life as a teacher or for many intellectuals was extremely tough and had declined. However, both teachers and students were very positive. Many intellectuals went to other countries not only because of material difficulties, rather mainly because of lack of opportunities or conditions that allowed them to demonstrate their talents in developing our country. In fact, during those difficult years I was so worried that if the situation continued, I was uncertain what the future would be like. Eventually I overcame that stage of uncertainty.

I came from a middle-class family who lived in a poor area in Hue. We valued savings very highly and never lavished. Therefore, I was able to easily adapt to hardships. As a Vietnamese youth, I stuck with the youth movement opposing the Vietnam War against the U.S., so when liberation occurred I happily received the new regime for protecting the peace. Vietnam is my home country and my family is here in Vietnam. I am very proud of our independence and greatly appreciate what many previous generations sacrificed for peace.

Interviewer:  How have you developed and expanded Women’s Studies in Vietnam?

Dr. Du:  Fortunately, there was an opportunity in 1992 while we were expanding the academics of humanities and geography, urban populations, and women’s research. It was a coincidence that Professor Cao Van Phuong at the Open University (OU) initiated new disciplines in the social sciences. He collaborated with Canadian and other schools to open the Southeast Asian, Business and Administration, and Women’s Studies Departments. In my opinion, this was an important and outstanding turning point.

Given such an initiative, I coordinated with social activist Nguyen Thi Oanh (as a friend that I have known since 1976) to begin building women’s studies and social work at OU. Initially, we trained and developed a women's studies program heavily stressing practical knowledge and social-work skills. Our next step then was to form a Bachelor’s degree program in Women’s Studies. The department expanded academic cooperation and was supported with implementation of various research projects such as the several we conducted on women and children, as well as professionals who were writing textbooks. Other success was that the students in our program gained knowledge, values, and skills so they could be employed to work with diverse populations including disadvantaged women and children.

Furthermore, we offered scholarships for the Women's Union staff and collaborated with the Women’s Community School II to train Women’s Union officials in a Bachelor’s degree training program from Đa Nang to Ca Mau. In recent years, the number of students at the early age of 20 has increased. In 2004, the name of the Women’s Studies Department was changed to the Department of Sociology.

Interviewer:  So do you think the change in the name was a step backward, or in other words, did it become a losing position for the development of women's issues?

Dr. Du:  It seems so, however, there is lack of evidence that it has resulted in a decrease in attention to this crucial field. In reality, Women’s Studies have made a great impact and have caused a shift in thinking in today’s society. To me, this move favors experiencing the receipt of unexpected good. That is, it leaves room for other new training programs to be developed. For instance, sociology and gender has become a key course in sociology training programs and in the framework of general training in education. In addition, sustainable outcomes exist in many departments of many universities in Vietnam thanks to the contributions of Women’s Studies. Recently, academic activities have paid attention to gender and feminism. For example, there is literature research based on feminist theories in the Department of Literature and Department of History. Their research results have had an important influence on gender and development. Some other graduate programs also have the areas of gender, environment, and development in their curriculum. More importantly, the leaders have recently shown interest and concern in gender and gender equality. This is a stepping-stone for the path to penetration of gender and women issues into higher education institutions.

Interviewer:  Since then you have continued working on gender equality and women issues. It appears to me that these are the foci of your central business and passion for life, are they?

Dr. Du:  In 2002, I officially retired from the University of Social Sciences and Humanities and continued to be Dean of the Department of Women Studies at OU for several years. Concurrently with my Dean position, I was invited to be an academic advisor to Agence Universitaire Francophonie (AUF). I worked for seven consecutive years in this position and became a bridge between the French universities and Vietnamese lecturers. My primary work has always been education along with participating in conducting research on gender issues and networking. Thanks to these opportunities I came into contact with international professionals and learned their theories on the particular aspects of women.

Interviewer:  You are now working for Hoa Sen University (HSU); is it because they prioritize research and development?

Dr. Du:  I have worked for HSU since early 2010. I have known Madam Bui Tran Phuong as a colleague for a long time. Ms. Phuong has taught the history of Vietnamese women.  Regarding HSU, it became a university for five years ago. HSU has not only prioritized the development of areas in research in social sciences and humanities, it has also developed better approaches to society. Research on gender and women issues is our focal point and I participated in the establishment of the Gender and Society Research Center (GAS). Due to limited research on gender development and women issues in Vietnam, the GAS research team pursues efforts to conduct research on women and disseminate scientific outcomes to the public nationwide and worldwide. We look forward to building connections with other countries in order to learn from them as well as contribute our efforts to the enhancement of gender studies in Vietnam.

Interviewer:  So, what is the focus of your immediate problem?      

Dr. Du:  We first concentrate on disseminating knowledge, building a GAS website, producing a newsletter every three months and publishing a book on Gender and Society.

Interviewer:  As you may know, today information spreads extremely fast. What women or gender problems in Vietnam do you target?

Dr. Du:  As with other countries, we prioritize knowledge-dissemination and awareness-raising for both men and women in society.

Interviewer:  Do other universities study gender and women issues in Vietnam, Madam Du?

Dr. Du:  Definitely, there are many research centers in the North of Vietnam such as the Institute for Family and Gender Studies established by Professor Le Thi, the Research Center for Gender, Family and Environment in Development founded by Professor Le Thi Nham Tuyet, and so forth. In the South, there is the Southern Institute of Sustainable Development. In general, people have a limited understanding of social relations between male and female as two primary social groups. They understand their relationships as individual rather than that of two primary social groups.

Interviewer:  What do you think and how do you explain the opinion that women’s studies are a type of women's movement rather than a scientific discipline?

Dr. Du:  Well, this is so wrong. Regarding universities and institutions, conducting research on Women’s Studies and Gender is a very critical role in the development of social science and humanities. This is not simply considered a women’s movement. Women's Union has a research division on theories in general and feminist theories in particular. Other organizations advocate and clarify this scientific field since they utilize gender perspectives to analyze global issues, including poverty and hunger, health issues, and leadership.

Interviewer:  How important is this scientific field?

Dr. Du:  Gender or Women’s Studies are involved in many disciplines. The developmental activities such as environment, human resources, hunger elimination, poverty reduction and so forth are carried out.  The interdisciplinary views will enhance comprehensive development.

Interviewer:  With such confidence, what exactly are you doing right now?

Dr. Du:  Hoa Sen (Lotus) is a private university with limited conditions and resources; therefore, the GAS has started with small steps first and is gradually moving to higher levels. The center has expanded and raised awareness on gender knowledge and women’s issues to the public via newsletters sent to more than 1000 email addresses nationwide and worldwide every three months in three languages--Vietnamese, English, and French. In addition, during its first stage the center has focused on the three following major themes: Women, Gender and History, Women, Gender, and Education, and Women, Gender, and Violence. We have also conducted small research studies such as doing surveys and interviewing women who studied at French Schools before 1945. We collected their stories on the importance of education that has changed their lives and the formation of the first generation of female intellectuals in Vietnam. Moreover, we gathered tales via in-depth interview methodology from students at the Dong Khanh and Gia Long Schools where many young generations were inspired and nurtured. Thanks to such solid fundamental values and education, these women took on the responsibilities to motivate and be models to young people and reconstruct the country by the use of their open and positive perspectives.

Interviewer:  Having had such golden opportunities to meet the initial famous and inspiring female generations of Vietnamese intellectuals, it appears that you have many moving and meaningful stories to share with us.

Dr. Du:  Absolutely, it has been my great honor to meet those people and listen to their life stories. I even met Miss Dong Khanh/Madam Phan Thanh Ty Ty. She is now 93 and lives in Hanoi. In the past, she was the most outstanding and beautiful student at the Dong Khanh School. This group of intellects had many different destinies; some joined the war, others went abroad and now have returned to Vietnam. They have differing political points of view, though everyone cherishes and never forgets their high school memories, which became a vital part of their lives. Many researchers have recently conducted studies on women and violence such as in the conflict between Israel and Palestine. Meanwhile, our center conducted in-depth interviews about 20 Vietnamese heroic mothers. We learned many valuable things from these honorable ladies. They sacrificed too much; however, none of them asked for compensation or benefits or bear grudges to the enemy that killed their husbands and children. They said, “the reasons we don’t hate the enemy is because of the war situation.” Their great tolerance and forgiveness truly has inspired and touched us. In return for their tremendous suffering and great loss, our government and society need to pay more caring attention toward them by showing more gratitude and honor on celebrations or holidays and also by material, social, emotional, and spiritual support.

Interviewer: You have conducted a lot of research on Women’s Studies. What do you think about Vietnamese women?

Dr. Du:  The question is too broad; however, I do have some comments. Apparently, women tend to care more about the survival of the family, strive to make a living for the family, and show remarkable resilience in every situation. Women actively engaged in economic activities during the period of reform. In Vietnam, male support for gender equality is not strong enough; they fear that they will lose their rights. Due to the impact of traditional die-hard views and the existence of gender bias and discrimination in society, it is difficult to eliminate gender inequality for both men and women. Even women seem to be confused and contradictory. Many women misunderstand the notion of gender equality in that they feel they have to give up their role of taking care of their family or that western concepts will come to Vietnam that include liberal ideas of self-indulgence and child neglect.

Interviewer:  So, please help me understand. Does gender equality only benefit women rather than men as many people still think?

Dr. Du:  Actually, gender equality benefits both men and women in society. Both men and women have to understand that gender equality helps to build good relations and create harmony between them. In the past, women’s positions were at home while men worked outside the home. In this modern time, the number of women participating in the workforce has increased and men have learned to do household work and educate children together with women. Men feel much happier when sharing household chores with women, along with taking care of their family. However, women should perform all housework alone in the home. Women and men should feel that caring for members in the family and doing all household chores are shared duties and responsibilities. That is, helping and sharing roles make men proud and happy. Don’t take away men’s happiness.

Interviewer:  However, these women must have heard a lot of complaints about moral deterioration in society, particularly broken families and weakened roles of education.

Dr. Du:  The power of money seems to be very strong these days. If parents nurture their children in such a materialistic manner and value, that is terribly wrong. As an instructor myself, I often share and discuss with female students, who are progressive, that women have to study well and obtain a higher education, care for their families, and be respectful and equal. In my heart and mind, I have high hopes for them. As for male students the same age as female students, they appear to have progressive views when discussing or sharing their thoughts on women’s issues, though when digging deeper, traces of the patriarchal perspectives are still revealed. These males support women working outside the home, however, if they are asked how they would choose their future wives, they would say, “I want to get married to a woman who is feminine and wants to mainly care for her family.” Some even say, “I don’t want to marry a woman who has a higher education.” This means that gender equality is for other people, not for my family.

Interviewer:  Upon hearing those words, what do you think?

Dr. Du:  Regarding gender perspectives, the downfall of society mostly affects women. Many people still believe in the power of money. Some people think that their daughters getting married to foreigners like Korean men, without love is to show their ​​filial piety to their parents. These parents are lacking in guidance or preparation for their children so that their children may live good lives. They still follow the old feudal model in that parents have the power and control over their children’s lives without thinking about their future and happiness. The parents also have a lack of understanding, and fundamentally solid values and morality. If we have a good social environment, parents will be better oriented toward their children and will know how to foster good social values in their children. Generally, there is moral corruption. However, many poor farm families work very hard to save every penny so that their children may go to school, and yet there are young people who eagerly gain social values and strive for success the hard way, which becomes the fortress in their lives.  We have to nurture these.

Interviewer:  You have spent your entire life in a teaching career and you must have heard a lot about educational goals. What are your views on this issue?

Dr. Du:  I have seen many students striving to achieve academic results. However, I am concerned that young people studying abroad are not able to show their ability and potential in the heavy mechanism of education that exists abroad.

Interviewer:  In reality, many employers do not highly value Vietnamese students’ qualifications. What do you think of this problem?

Dr. Du:  Generally, that is so. Some foreign employers follow international standards and so do some Vietnamese companies. There are too many universities that may not have invested enough in a faculty force; good instructors are often scarce.  The demand for investment in raising the quality of facilities, school buildings, laboratories, etc, is always high; the quality of the educational system is uneven.

Looking at the labor market, I find that the quality of administration of some enterprises is low. Employees who are high school graduates only and those who are university graduates are many times assigned an identical task. For example, if they work in the tourist industry, they both deal with the same tasks such as issuing tickets, visas, or determining logistics. The requirements for human resources are not high. In large cities, students can find jobs easily. High or low salaries are dependent on employees’ majors rather than on professional qualifications. I think labor market experts are better prepared to answer this than me.

Interviewer:  It is said that students don’t know how to think independently. In your opinion, can universities train this attribute?

Dr. Du:  When working with students, I think of the elementary school, secondary school, and high school. These previous levels play very vital roles in the early training of such primary – or fundamental -  skills as curiosity, reading, and questioning . It may be very difficult for universities to be the first to begin training students these important skills. In the past, it was so primitive when I went to school; however, our instructors required that we read, explore, think, envision problems, argue with a free spirit, have respect for multi-dimensional ideas, and understand a diverse world. We were trained to study independently and not blindly follow what was said irrationally. These days, as I guide students to prepare their thesis, they discover many interesting things through interviews, surveys, and literature reviews, though when writing up results, they leave out all those primary points and copy ideas as secondary materials reported.

Thank you for a meaningful conversation.

Nguyen Thi Ngoc Hai